Sun, 16 December 2007 The WGA strike is all about the Internet... Why? Because it's the future -- for all of us. An inside take on what's going on and our thoughts about where Hollywood is heading. Get ready: everything you know is about to change. Comments[21] |
Really enjoyed the podcast! Some good insights into new media and the various methods of "attack" I recently finished a webseries COMMUNICATION, with no financial backing, completely independent, shot on DV, with legitimate actors, a respectable crew, and modest equipment. It can be done on the cheap, Roger Corman Style and I intend on making more. As technology advances I think we'll be seeing a lot more quality programs designed for the net. Glad to see people talking about it as a legitimate form of entertainment.
posted by: David Winkfield on Mon, 12/17 10:11 AM EST
I'm actually stunned because just about two days ago I had a discussion about this whole thing, getting TV shows and Movies when ever we want! It's really great to hear more aspects about this thing and I really thing that it's the future!
As for what Sam said about the middle east (there's a lot of money there) that's right, but the problem is it's not used well!!
Happy holidays! :)
As for what Sam said about the middle east (there's a lot of money there) that's right, but the problem is it's not used well!!
Happy holidays! :)
posted by: Beshr on Mon, 12/17 01:17 PM EST
I'm glad you liked this podcast - I was worried it would come off as either a)the first ten pages of a cheap "how to" book that vaguely tells you everything and, really tells you nothing, or b) be stuff everyone is tired of hearing about...
On the other hand, it IS what Jim and I talk about all the time lately.
On the other hand, it IS what Jim and I talk about all the time lately.
You are spot on guys. We are finally hitting the window when web and television are becoming a combo the masses can use. I believe in 2008 and 2009 the top Christmas item will be things to merge the two. Cable companies know their future is not traditional television. Some of them want to charge for the amount data customers can download which is scary, but I believe we will find ways to get system in place that will end choke hold large studios have.
You guys also nailed the issue of quality of content. In a strange way, the low budget special series and movies Sci-Fi has done shows how you do not always need the latest and greatest in tech to make a good show. The key is the actors, the script, a good director, and editors who know their craft.
The one thing I would add to the topic of the future for writers is it will be harder and harder to find work as just a writer. With technology costs coming down, one the key costs will be labor. Writers who can direct, produce, run camera, and do editing will increase their odds of getting their work made is a 1000 times more likely then someone who just writes.
The one thing that will be interesting to watch is Google. They are becoming the source for advertiser dollars. If they end up owning a large chunk of the ad revenue, they could become like the studios of today. What if Google decides that because they help users to find your content and that because they work with major advetisers that they want a slice of the pie. Maybe they will want 50% ownership of a script or to control licensed goods from your show or movie. I believe, we as the general public need to keep an eye where the power shifts to on the web. If we are not careful maybe Microsoft, Google, Verizon, and Comcast will become the Disney, NBC Universal, CBS, and Sony of the web.
Keep up the great work guys. I know you will find ways to make great things happen. I just hope the strike does not drag on so long the public gives up interest in it. Then we will be stuck in reality show hell. I do enjoy some reality shows, but if that was all there was on TV I would blow my TV up.
You guys also nailed the issue of quality of content. In a strange way, the low budget special series and movies Sci-Fi has done shows how you do not always need the latest and greatest in tech to make a good show. The key is the actors, the script, a good director, and editors who know their craft.
The one thing I would add to the topic of the future for writers is it will be harder and harder to find work as just a writer. With technology costs coming down, one the key costs will be labor. Writers who can direct, produce, run camera, and do editing will increase their odds of getting their work made is a 1000 times more likely then someone who just writes.
The one thing that will be interesting to watch is Google. They are becoming the source for advertiser dollars. If they end up owning a large chunk of the ad revenue, they could become like the studios of today. What if Google decides that because they help users to find your content and that because they work with major advetisers that they want a slice of the pie. Maybe they will want 50% ownership of a script or to control licensed goods from your show or movie. I believe, we as the general public need to keep an eye where the power shifts to on the web. If we are not careful maybe Microsoft, Google, Verizon, and Comcast will become the Disney, NBC Universal, CBS, and Sony of the web.
Keep up the great work guys. I know you will find ways to make great things happen. I just hope the strike does not drag on so long the public gives up interest in it. Then we will be stuck in reality show hell. I do enjoy some reality shows, but if that was all there was on TV I would blow my TV up.
I agree with Kev about the strike, I mean NO ONE can keep on watching reality shows only! that's gonna blow off not only Kev's tv, it's blow up my brain!
posted by: Beshr on Tue, 12/18 03:33 PM EST
Guys,
Good stuff.
One question: How do you see features -vs- internet as it relates to features -vs- television sixty years ago?
In the early fifties the nay-sayers predicted that television would be the demise of movies -- didn't happen.
Your thoughts?
Good stuff.
One question: How do you see features -vs- internet as it relates to features -vs- television sixty years ago?
In the early fifties the nay-sayers predicted that television would be the demise of movies -- didn't happen.
Your thoughts?
posted by: Mike on Wed, 12/19 08:39 PM EST
Hey guys,
I'm glad you finally touched on the question of whether the destination was worthy of the journey. I’ve wondered about this for quite a while, especially as I’ve lived vicariously through your podcasts! I wish you'd elaborate on the psychological aspect of this realization. (1) What about your current situation (not the monetary aspect) is disappointing to you? Is it the difficulty of finding permanent work or in the work itself? (2) Are you disappointed with your personal progress as writers? Are you better or worse than you originally thought? (3) What about the level of competition? Is it more difficult than you expected? (4) How does it make you feel knowing you (and your families) have sacrificed so much for your personal dreams? How do your wives feel, are they disappointed with you or with the journey as well? (5) What would you consider to be your Shangri-La (as writers)?
Sorry for all the questions, it’s just that I’ve closely followed your struggle for lo these past two years and now that “our heroes have endured the supreme ordeal and emerged victorious�, I feel as though there needs to be some retrospection (closure) on what you’ve endured.
I'm glad you finally touched on the question of whether the destination was worthy of the journey. I’ve wondered about this for quite a while, especially as I’ve lived vicariously through your podcasts! I wish you'd elaborate on the psychological aspect of this realization. (1) What about your current situation (not the monetary aspect) is disappointing to you? Is it the difficulty of finding permanent work or in the work itself? (2) Are you disappointed with your personal progress as writers? Are you better or worse than you originally thought? (3) What about the level of competition? Is it more difficult than you expected? (4) How does it make you feel knowing you (and your families) have sacrificed so much for your personal dreams? How do your wives feel, are they disappointed with you or with the journey as well? (5) What would you consider to be your Shangri-La (as writers)?
Sorry for all the questions, it’s just that I’ve closely followed your struggle for lo these past two years and now that “our heroes have endured the supreme ordeal and emerged victorious�, I feel as though there needs to be some retrospection (closure) on what you’ve endured.
Where\'s Sam\'s mom? She\'s the only reason I hang around here.
posted by: Guyot on Thu, 12/20 11:30 AM EST
Great show. I couldn't agree with you more on all your comments. Your 'emotional connection' to a story parrallels my theory in that ultimately people watch what they watch because they like the character-- which, in my humble opinion, is part writing and part whoever the person is that is reading your lines. Rockford Files, Magnum PI, Cheers, Friends, etc. etc. became hits because an audience liked watching those characters. What would be interesting is to quantify the success of a show based on good writing vs. actor charisma. Anyway, yada yada yada, great show guys, thanks for making it.
posted by: Tom on Thu, 12/20 11:30 AM EST
The thing is, youtube and the like is really not the internet - not the future of what we're talking/striking about. And the technology already exists - for programming to be all via the internet. They are simply working on how to integrate it. In four or five years tops, Tivo will be a dinosaur, and we will ALL go to the Net, pick out what we want to watch via web sites, and then watch them on our plasmas. No more remembering to Tivo something, nothing. It'll all be there.
And if we don't make this deal now, then when that time comes, we will be shut out of ANY residuals.
I think if the writers as a whole would look at models like what Ed and Marshall did with their show - cutting out the studios and going straight to the Net - we would make the AMPTP very nervous. And look, NBC ended up buying their show, yet unlike the normal TV deal, Ed and Marshall OWN the thing.
The way it should be. Writers need to take back the copyright so to speak. That is the only way to survive in the internet future.
And if we don't make this deal now, then when that time comes, we will be shut out of ANY residuals.
I think if the writers as a whole would look at models like what Ed and Marshall did with their show - cutting out the studios and going straight to the Net - we would make the AMPTP very nervous. And look, NBC ended up buying their show, yet unlike the normal TV deal, Ed and Marshall OWN the thing.
The way it should be. Writers need to take back the copyright so to speak. That is the only way to survive in the internet future.
posted by: guyot on Thu, 12/20 12:42 PM EST
Thanks for all the comments. Whyme, we'll put your stuff in the hopper for another podcast.
A quick thought on the stuff Guyot points out -- it ties back to Mike's question about the dawn of TV. We're in an era of transition. The impact of TV was huge: the days of serials & newsreels and movie-going as an all-day entertainment went bye-bye. The new medium soaked up appetite for some of what the old one formerly provided -- but they both survived and thrived in their own fashions.
With the net it's a done deal. We know where we're going. Referring to America's entry into the war, Churchill said something like "Hitler's fate was sealed. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force." There's a similar relentlessness to writers reclaiming ownership of their work and creating for the web.
And that seems to unroll a future with two different paths. One is a web-TV model, with an advertising base, where revenue is all about the number of eyeballs. Expect variations on all the stuff we already know.
The second path is akin to what happened when pay cable started programming shows. Where downloads are paid for by the end-user and the audience becomes the customer, not themselves the product being sold to advertisers (as few people realize). Think along the lines of "It's not YouTube, it's HBO."
That could create a market of "Indie TV" unlike anything we've ever seen. In the wide-open spaces of the net, there's really no limit to where things could go (as long as people pay to see it). We writers could finally have the freedom to do things the way we've always thought they should be done, and get vindication that the things we thought worth doing actually have a market.
Or we just might find out that all the damned notes actually served a purpose after all (*shudder*).
A quick thought on the stuff Guyot points out -- it ties back to Mike's question about the dawn of TV. We're in an era of transition. The impact of TV was huge: the days of serials & newsreels and movie-going as an all-day entertainment went bye-bye. The new medium soaked up appetite for some of what the old one formerly provided -- but they both survived and thrived in their own fashions.
With the net it's a done deal. We know where we're going. Referring to America's entry into the war, Churchill said something like "Hitler's fate was sealed. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force." There's a similar relentlessness to writers reclaiming ownership of their work and creating for the web.
And that seems to unroll a future with two different paths. One is a web-TV model, with an advertising base, where revenue is all about the number of eyeballs. Expect variations on all the stuff we already know.
The second path is akin to what happened when pay cable started programming shows. Where downloads are paid for by the end-user and the audience becomes the customer, not themselves the product being sold to advertisers (as few people realize). Think along the lines of "It's not YouTube, it's HBO."
That could create a market of "Indie TV" unlike anything we've ever seen. In the wide-open spaces of the net, there's really no limit to where things could go (as long as people pay to see it). We writers could finally have the freedom to do things the way we've always thought they should be done, and get vindication that the things we thought worth doing actually have a market.
Or we just might find out that all the damned notes actually served a purpose after all (*shudder*).
Thanks for another podcast, and within 2 weeks of the last one no less! This strike is proving to be really great for your podcasting careers.
I must say that this podcast disappointed me a little.
I felt all this momentum building up during the first half of the 'cast, only to be let down in the end. I heard two very different messages.
At first, I heard you guys saying that we needed to circumvent the existing producers and instead find our own investors. I perked up in my chair, waiting to hear how this could happen. Where there writers cooking up some grand scheme to abandon traditional TV altogether and instead launch some new web-based network?
Then, at the end of the 'cast I heard --not necessarily what you said, but what I heard was -- keep writing, for the internet and maybe you'll get discovered in a few years once the greedy guys take over the new media.
It sounded to me, after everything was said and done, that the new frontier of the internet won't become legitimate until we let the assholes who are running things in Hollywood run the new internet frontier as well.
Shouldn't writers be taking the opportunity now to become more organized in this regard?
Shouldn't we be trying to figure economic models for how this can work?
Lately, I've been racking my brains about this constantly. I'm in the process of revamping my own website. I'm adding a lot of homegrown video and intend to update that video frequently. (My target audience, at least at this point I think will be local to Florida) What that video exactly will be, why people will want to keep coming back, how I might make money at it...Those are the things I wrestle with on a daily basis and don't have all the answers to.
I agree these are exciting times. I hope that we, the creatives, are able to own and define what the ground rules will be before they've once again been decided for us.
Thanks once again for a thought provoking podcast.
I must say that this podcast disappointed me a little.
I felt all this momentum building up during the first half of the 'cast, only to be let down in the end. I heard two very different messages.
At first, I heard you guys saying that we needed to circumvent the existing producers and instead find our own investors. I perked up in my chair, waiting to hear how this could happen. Where there writers cooking up some grand scheme to abandon traditional TV altogether and instead launch some new web-based network?
Then, at the end of the 'cast I heard --not necessarily what you said, but what I heard was -- keep writing, for the internet and maybe you'll get discovered in a few years once the greedy guys take over the new media.
It sounded to me, after everything was said and done, that the new frontier of the internet won't become legitimate until we let the assholes who are running things in Hollywood run the new internet frontier as well.
Shouldn't writers be taking the opportunity now to become more organized in this regard?
Shouldn't we be trying to figure economic models for how this can work?
Lately, I've been racking my brains about this constantly. I'm in the process of revamping my own website. I'm adding a lot of homegrown video and intend to update that video frequently. (My target audience, at least at this point I think will be local to Florida) What that video exactly will be, why people will want to keep coming back, how I might make money at it...Those are the things I wrestle with on a daily basis and don't have all the answers to.
I agree these are exciting times. I hope that we, the creatives, are able to own and define what the ground rules will be before they've once again been decided for us.
Thanks once again for a thought provoking podcast.
posted by: Waddy Padilla on Thu, 12/20 09:44 PM EST
Hey Waddy -
Yeah, you’re right, we put all the ingredients on the table and then left the kitchen. The truth is we don't have the one true answer for how to channel the creative energies of all the good writers out there onto the web, hopefully soon to be freed from the shackles of soul sucking corporate America. We just wanted to lay out our feeling that even though we've all heard it before, the time for all of us really IS nigh and for all the reasons we laid out.
BUT, the truth is we actually do have our own answer for how to capitalize on the current and imminent freedom of the web - and we are working on that right now. I wish I could say more about it, but I can't, yet, for two reasons: the obvious one is that we'll let the cat out of the bag, and the second reason is that if it doesn't come together I’ll be all embarrassed...
When we do – if we do – launch this thing we’re working feverishly on, I’d like to talk about it as we do it to have everyone sort of experience it with us. Not to mention critique the hell out of it so we can improve it. But that’s a bit down the road.
Some good news for us: we got into the WGA “Showrunner’s Training Program� which is six days of meeting with showrunners to learn how to, umm... run a TV show. Check out the WGA website if you’re interested, but we think it’s pretty cool. Oh, the people we’ll meet...
Cheers,
Yeah, you’re right, we put all the ingredients on the table and then left the kitchen. The truth is we don't have the one true answer for how to channel the creative energies of all the good writers out there onto the web, hopefully soon to be freed from the shackles of soul sucking corporate America. We just wanted to lay out our feeling that even though we've all heard it before, the time for all of us really IS nigh and for all the reasons we laid out.
BUT, the truth is we actually do have our own answer for how to capitalize on the current and imminent freedom of the web - and we are working on that right now. I wish I could say more about it, but I can't, yet, for two reasons: the obvious one is that we'll let the cat out of the bag, and the second reason is that if it doesn't come together I’ll be all embarrassed...
When we do – if we do – launch this thing we’re working feverishly on, I’d like to talk about it as we do it to have everyone sort of experience it with us. Not to mention critique the hell out of it so we can improve it. But that’s a bit down the road.
Some good news for us: we got into the WGA “Showrunner’s Training Program� which is six days of meeting with showrunners to learn how to, umm... run a TV show. Check out the WGA website if you’re interested, but we think it’s pretty cool. Oh, the people we’ll meet...
Cheers,
I read about the cancellation of The Dead Zone. However, it was unclear to me if you two were actually affected by this. I was unsure if the writing staff is hired on a year-to-year basis.
posted by: Clinton on Fri, 12/21 01:39 PM EST
Clinton --
Well, yeah, staffs are hired on a season-to-season basis, depending on individual contracts (some people make multi-year deals). But they're all renewed at the discretion of the studio. When a show gets cancelled, we all hit the curb.
And Waddy --
What's going on now is a transitional stage. We're ALL perked up in our chairs, and we're ALL waiting for someone to outline the way this is gonna work. I can tell you for a fact that venture capitalists are talking to writers all over town right now. Models are being examined, deals hammered out, wheels invented as needed.
I think we said as much on the show, but all of this is going to hinge on the deals done by big names. Sure, the rest of us can explore things, but there's a critical mass effect that can't be ignored. when that last foot of hookup between the TV and the Net really comes true (in an easy to use, ubiquitous way), SOMETHING is going to take on the aggregating role of broadcast networks.
A TV network, in a generic sense, is a bunch of broadcaster banding together to license shows from studios. They then use the quality of those shows to cross-promote their other shows, all with the goal of selling as many eyeballs as possible to their advertisers.
In the New Media world, there's going to be a lot of free floating content -- in fact, that's the situation now. A service like YouTube gets hot by creating a forum to pull all kinds of content together. With a bunch of money going into (relatively) high-production cost scripted fare, some new agencies will be created to bundle & cross-promote shows. Could be the old networks, but if they choose to be as dull and lacking in vision as they've proved in recent years, it'll be some new batch of "internetworks."
In any event, the great content and the easy distribution has to link up in a serious way before making this big leap is anything BUT confusing. With enough money and talent, it'll smooth out pretty quick. But right now, we're sort of paralleling the early 1900's, where instead of grand movie palaces, there's just a lot of kinescope parlors with people eagerly running around filming horses galloping or whatever, and people lining up to see small, jerky images that nonetheless fascinate them -- the original YouTube.
I wish we could do more than set the table at this point, but frankly we're all on our own for a while yet.
Well, yeah, staffs are hired on a season-to-season basis, depending on individual contracts (some people make multi-year deals). But they're all renewed at the discretion of the studio. When a show gets cancelled, we all hit the curb.
And Waddy --
What's going on now is a transitional stage. We're ALL perked up in our chairs, and we're ALL waiting for someone to outline the way this is gonna work. I can tell you for a fact that venture capitalists are talking to writers all over town right now. Models are being examined, deals hammered out, wheels invented as needed.
I think we said as much on the show, but all of this is going to hinge on the deals done by big names. Sure, the rest of us can explore things, but there's a critical mass effect that can't be ignored. when that last foot of hookup between the TV and the Net really comes true (in an easy to use, ubiquitous way), SOMETHING is going to take on the aggregating role of broadcast networks.
A TV network, in a generic sense, is a bunch of broadcaster banding together to license shows from studios. They then use the quality of those shows to cross-promote their other shows, all with the goal of selling as many eyeballs as possible to their advertisers.
In the New Media world, there's going to be a lot of free floating content -- in fact, that's the situation now. A service like YouTube gets hot by creating a forum to pull all kinds of content together. With a bunch of money going into (relatively) high-production cost scripted fare, some new agencies will be created to bundle & cross-promote shows. Could be the old networks, but if they choose to be as dull and lacking in vision as they've proved in recent years, it'll be some new batch of "internetworks."
In any event, the great content and the easy distribution has to link up in a serious way before making this big leap is anything BUT confusing. With enough money and talent, it'll smooth out pretty quick. But right now, we're sort of paralleling the early 1900's, where instead of grand movie palaces, there's just a lot of kinescope parlors with people eagerly running around filming horses galloping or whatever, and people lining up to see small, jerky images that nonetheless fascinate them -- the original YouTube.
I wish we could do more than set the table at this point, but frankly we're all on our own for a while yet.
Where's the new episode?
posted by: Beshr on Wed, 12/26 08:41 AM EST
I think the Letterman deal is brilliant. Basically, Letterman's company agreed to the same deal that the AMPTP walked away from on Dec 7. The strategy of divide and conquer is great, and it's hard to say the Guild's terms are unreasonable if others find them completely reasonable. I am having a hard time understanding John Stewart going back to work (I'm a huge fan of his), but I'll be tuning in to his first show to hear him explain it.
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